面對真相，基督徒很痛苦

Hatikva · 2010-07-22 21:35:53

Seraphim: Dragons in Heaven

Saraph: (from Strong's Concordance, #08314)
AV (how it's translated in the King James Version and how many times): fiery serpent 3, fiery 2, seraphim 2
1) serpent, fiery serpent; 1a) poisonous serpent (fiery from burning effect of poison)
2)seraph, seraphim: majestic beings with 6 wings, human hands or voices in attendance upon God

Dragons in Heaven?

If this is a seraph, it's a fallen one!

Zmei Gorinich dragon painting

Boy, was I surprised when I finally decided to look up those heavenly beings from Isaiah 6:2-6. They're snakes!

In fact, they're serpents with wings and feet. I'm pretty sure that qualifies them as dragons!

Wouldn't you agree?

The (ahem, hmm) Scholarship Behind This Translation

I had always wondered about these strange creatures. Isaiah 6 says they have six wings. They fly with two, they cover their feet with two, and they cover their faces with two.

When Isaiah saw them, they were shouting, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Armies; the whole earth is full of his glory." They were shouting this to one another.

I've heard it said that this is all they do (shout this 24/7), but that's not true. When Isaiah was stricken with conviction from being in the presence of the Lord, it was one of the Seraphim who touched his lips and said, "Lo, this has touched your lips. Your iniquity is taken away, and your sin is atoned for."

A Helpful Reader Expounds on Seraphim
I think this qualifies as at least a small defense of modern translators. This comment by a reader on Seraphim is useful.
I appreciate your interest in Seraphim. I too have been studying this recently to discover if there are links to Gen. 3. So far they are only "inferences" that Satan may have been a Seraphim, who appeared as a serpent. Nothing concrete.
On Isaiah though, I think one of the reasons translators have "hidden" the definition as 'serpent' for "Seraphim" is because there is a variant issue. Jewish and Christan translators alike struggle with knowing for certain if the 'serpent' root is accurate or the root for 'fiery' is accurate. Rather than box us into a moot theological point—they may have chosen to simply leave it up to those who really want to dig to discover.
But to your point, it would be nice to have a note that says, "root uncertain—could be translated fiery or serpent—either way heavenly beings that surround the throne of God in worship and service," or something to that effect. :-)
Blessings,
Nate
Email used with permission.

I finally decided to look these beings up. Here's the simple facts …

* The Hebrew word saraph is used 7 times in the Hebrew Scriptures (Num. 21:6,8; Deut. 8:15; Is. 14:29; 30:6; and here twice)
* Every time—except in Isaiah 6—it is translated "fiery serpent" or something very close to that.
* In Isaiah 6, it is simply left untranslated. Seraphim is just the plural of seraph or saraph.
* The first three times it's used, the seraphim are poisonous snakes that God used to punish the Israelites.
* The last two times it's used in Isaiah—14:29 and 30:6—those "fiery serpents" are said to fly, too!

Dragons in Heaven!

Now I have no way of knowing what you think about dragons in heaven, but that's one of the neatest things I've ever found out.

Tell me you don't like dragons! Admit it; you know you do!

It doesn't fit our theology very well, but why not? Do dragons have anything at all to do with Christian theology? Why can't we have dragons in heaven? Why should that be offensive to us?

It shouldn't. You ought to relax and enjoy it.

That's my take on it, anyway.

原文：http://www.christian-history.org/seraphim.html

最后修改： Hatikva (2010-07-22 21:36:38)

Slain-Dracon · 2010-07-23 08:55:47

相比之下，我prefer不要和人類分享一個天堂，像DH那樣。

Hatikva · 2010-07-23 21:09:54

你忘了基督教的設定裡天堂是分很多層的，Seraph居住的地方，人類中再"好"的好人死了以後也去不了。

龙仔 · 2010-07-23 21:58:03

這對那些思想有偏見的基督徒是個"噩夢"，不過應該有對龍有好感的基督教徒吧？
有個問題：現在基督教到底認定熾天使是龍還是巨蟒？還是說不准？

Slain-Dracon · 2010-07-23 23:00:52

Hatikva 引用:

你忘了基督教的設定裡天堂是分很多層的，Seraph居住的地方，人類中再"好"的好人死了以後也去不了。

哈，謝謝提醒。

Dracostar3000 · 2010-07-24 00:09:17

龍仔引用:

這對那些思想有偏見的基督徒是個"噩夢"，不過應該有對龍有好感的基督教徒吧？
有個問題：現在基督教到底認定熾天使是龍還是巨蟒？還是說不准？

像是我家人?!屋子裡常常有一些龍的裝飾品出沒,彼此也蠻喜歡的,而且個龍處在是基督教家庭.[雖然我承認我不虔誠,但也喜歡從局外觀察]

有智慧的基督徒應該明辨是非,不是把沒有根據的東西混為一談,像是中國龍也是古蛇或是惡魔龍的化身之類的,感覺上就很白癡.
神給了生物智慧不是給假的,我們有能力去做客觀的分析,還有具有依據的推斷.
[P.S. 實體訪問^^,沒想到是家人親口說的,我簡短了一些,刪了一堆廢話]

熾天使只有依稀的形象,個龍覺得可靠的證據不足夠證明是龍,光靠外型有一點過於膚淺了.

最后修改： Dracostar3000 (2010-07-24 00:09:55)

Hatikva · 2010-07-25 14:12:37

龍仔引用:

這對那些思想有偏見的基督徒是個"噩夢"，不過應該有對龍有好感的基督教徒吧？
有個問題：現在基督教到底認定熾天使是龍還是巨蟒？還是說不准？

其實歐美國家有很多對龍有好感的基督教徒，反而是中國的"嫉妒徒"最喜歡樹敵，無論如何都要把自家的龍認定為"魔鬼"。
"Seraphim"這個詞來自希伯來語，和拉丁語系無關，而古時候的希伯來語中龍和蛇是個籠統的概念，都用同一個詞表示，後來才從希臘語中引進了"Drakon"這個詞來專門表示龍。熾天使有四肢，有翅膀也是有據可查的，你認為長著四肢和翅膀的"大蟒"還是蛇嗎？
當然，這是史學家考證的結果，基督教官方是不可能去研究這個的。

Hatikva · 2010-07-25 14:19:25

Dracostar3000 引用:

熾天使只有依稀的形象,個龍覺得可靠的證據不足夠證明是龍,光靠外型有一點過於膚淺了.

當然不是光靠外形，實際上外形方面的依據很有限。關鍵是"Seraphim"這個詞在它的創造者的語言——希伯來語中，詞源就是"炎龍"的意思。

shiningdracon · 2010-07-25 22:09:49

Dracostar3000 引用:

龍仔引用:
這對那些思想有偏見的基督徒是個"噩夢"，不過應該有對龍有好感的基督教徒吧？
有個問題：現在基督教到底認定熾天使是龍還是巨蟒？還是說不准？
像是我家人?!屋子裡常常有一些龍的裝飾品出沒,彼此也蠻喜歡的,而且個龍處在是基督教家庭.[雖然我承認我不虔誠,但也喜歡從局外觀察]
有智慧的基督徒應該明辨是非,不是把沒有根據的東西混為一談,像是中國龍也是古蛇或是惡魔龍的化身之類的,感覺上就很白癡.
神給了生物智慧不是給假的,我們有能力去做客觀的分析,還有具有依據的推斷.
[P.S. 實體訪問^^,沒想到是家人親口說的,我簡短了一些,刪了一堆廢話]
熾天使只有依稀的形象,個龍覺得可靠的證據不足夠證明是龍,光靠外型有一點過於膚淺了.

謝謝第一手資料

Hatikva · 2010-07-30 21:25:01

這張圖就是喜歡龍的基督徒的作品： d_xd

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#1 2010-07-22 21:35:53 只看该作者